Phrygian Way?

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David Morgan
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Phrygian Way?

Post by David Morgan » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:32 pm

I was wondering if there's anywhere to stay in the centre of the Phrygian sites between Kütahya and Afyon.
Another thing, why is it Midas Şehri, not Şehir? Is this a Turkish language grammar thing?


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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by steve » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:23 pm

Yep, fleeting vowel.

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by suppiluliuma » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:47 am

Very hard to explain, considering Indo-European sentence structure.

"Midas Şehri" actually like "Midas'(ın) Şeh(i)r-i"; in English: The city of Midas, or Midas' City.
When you say "Midas Şehir", "şehir" here is nominative, and you cannot form such a prepositional phrase with a proper name, like Midas here. When you use a name, you should form a possessive pronoun.
However, there are many exceptions in Turkish grammar, for example possessive suffix "-ın" (of) drops here, yet the second one "-i" remains.

Whereas, if it were an adjective, like "eski" (old), "yeni" (new), "büyük" (big), "ak" (white), etc., the noun should remain as nominative. ie Eski-şehir, Yeni-şehir, Büyük-şehir, Ak-şehir, etc.

I'm not sure if I could make it clear, I've just tried. :? :)
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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by steve » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:03 pm

Loads of Arabic-borrowed words have fleeting vowels. Resim becoming resmim etc.

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by David Morgan » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:34 pm

Thanks for the language lesson.
It would be nice if there was somewhere to stay in Ihsaniye or Gökbahce or Kümbet, for a bit of hiking.

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by Jeanne » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:35 pm

Hi,
When we travel between Istanbul and Kayaköy we love to stay one night in Ilice, north of Kütahya in Güral Harlek, very rural, foresty and a bit away from the main road.
I give a link, I can never manage to put in pictures here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/villarhapsody/2350974231/
This is Porsuk between Kütahya and Eskisehir, we passed by 2 weeks ago. Anyway this village of Ilice has more hotels to stay, it is a thermal bath region.
Hope this helps.

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by David Morgan » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:02 pm

Cheers, Jeanne, I think I got the idea that there was a "Phrygian Way" from seeing that photo.
Re Turkish grammar - Kangal Köpeği must be another example of the same construction (and Camii, I guess).

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by turkeytom » Thu May 23, 2013 10:42 pm

Kangal Köpeği is a "compound noun," sometimes called an indefinite izafet: the first noun of the two (Kangal) is not changed, but the second noun (köpek) takes the third-person suffix, in this case i.

To smooth the pronunciation of köpeki, the k becomes voiced and "softened" to ğ, so it ends up köpeği.

Turkish is fun, a cool system that does all sorts of stuff... :D ... :shock: ... :lol:

Tom Brosnahan

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by David Morgan » Fri May 24, 2013 12:45 am

Cheers, Tom. I'm now getting confused about whether there should be an "i" or an "ı" at the end, On a slightly separate but related issue, is the huge confusion on the internet regarding whether it should be Eflatun Pınarı or whatever. Some people seem to think that Eflatun is purple and others think it's Plato. Also, should it really be Midas Sehrı?

I've realised it doesn't help when even the Turks themselves dumb down there own language in order to "help" the ignorant tourist. I find that both freaky and patronising.

I'm still slowly on the path to Turkish, the problem being I don't get to use it very often, except occasionally with the guys from Aksaray at my local kebab shop.

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Re: Phrygian Way?

Post by turkeytom » Fri May 24, 2013 1:11 am

Like other languages, Turkish evolves constantly.

In 1967 I had been taught a lot of Ottoman words and terms because they were still in wide use. Then along comes Prime Minister Bülent Ecevit, an ardent advocate of Öztürkçe ("Pure Turkish") scattering neologisms like apple blossom petals in May. Next thing I know my Turkish is that of an Old Codger because I say mübalağa instead of abartma for "exaggeration."

As for i or ı, it's governed by vowel harmony...except when it isn't (usually with foreign loanwords). So it would be Eflatun Pınarı.

But then there's the case of çirağan, a loanword from Persian (çirağ = lamp; çirağan = lamps). But according to Turkish vowel harmony, it should be çırağan, and so it now is, at least in the official name and logo of the Çırağan Palace Kempinski Hotel Istanbul.

And hol, English 'hole' in its Turkish guise. To make it a compound noun, one adds the 'wrong' vowel harmony suffix—a front-of-the-mouth suffix rather than back-of-the-mouth: holü, as in Bozukluk Holü, the little hole at the bottom of a coin-operated telephone (remember those?) into which your change fell and from which it could be retrieved (in principle).

Along come mobile phones, AutoCorrect and Twitter to wreak even more change on this wonderful language. We gotta koş to keep up.

Tom Brosnahan


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